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Archive for May, 2010

Imam Ibn Hamdan al-Hanbali on one who says Allah ta’ala in a place!

Posted by muhammedm on May 27, 2010

أبدأُ بالحمدِ مُصَلِّياً على مُحمَّدٍ خَيِر نبيْ أُرســـــِلا

“Whoever says He is, with His essence, in every place or in a place is a Kafir, because the statement necessitates pre-eternity of place…”Nihayatul Mubtadi’in li Ibn Hamdan Pg. 33

As the hadith states, “Allah ta’ala was, and nothing was with Him…” If someone says He was in a place always, we ask him for textual proof, for if Makan was always there, it means place which is besides Allah ta’ala, was pre-eternal as well. And if someone says He wasn’t always in place, but put Himself in place then he has put Allah ta’ala in creation, both of which are impossible.

Wa ‘alaykumus Salam


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Julus on Kursi, Imam Dhahabi on Kitab as-Sunnah, Imam Ahmed, Waki’ Narration…

Posted by muhammedm on May 20, 2010

أبدأُ بالحمدِ مُصَلِّياً على مُحمَّدٍ خَيِر نبيْ أُرســـــِلا

The narration of contention is: “My father (Imam Ahmed) narrated to me, Waki’ narrated it to us, the hadith of Israi’l on the authority of Abi Ishaq on the authority of ‘Abdullah bin Khalifah on the authority of ‘Umar (Allah ta’ala be pleased with him), he said, “When the Lord sat on the Kursi” a man shook (when he heard this) in the presence of Waki’, to which Waki’ got angry and said, “we were in the presence of al-‘Amash, Sufyan who would narrate these Ahadith and wouldn’t reject it”.
وبه قال عبدالله: حدثني أبي ثنا وكيع بحديث إسرائيل عن أبي إسحاق عن عبدالله بن خليفة عن عمر: «إذا جلس الرب عز وجل على الكرسي» فاقشعر رجل سَمَّاهُ أبي عند وكيعٍ فغضب وكيعٌ وقال: أدركنا الأعمش وسفيان يُحَدِّثُونَ بهذه الأحاديث لاينكرونها

Imam Dhahabi on fabrications in the name of Imam Ahmed –
(1) “…Ahmed bin Ja’far al-Istakhri narrated to us that Abu ‘Abdillah Ahmed bin Hanbal said…And Allah, indeed, spoke to Musa from His mouth and other detestable things which, By Allah, he (Imam Ahmed) didn’t say, May the curse of Allah ta’ala be upon the fabricator…” Page 877 Siyar, Imam Dhahabi.

(2) “The isnad of this Risalah is (clear) as the sun, so look at this enlightened soul, not like the Risalah of al-Istakhri nor the “Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyya” fabricated upon Imam Ahmed, for the man was rightoues and God-fearing, he wouldn’t utter such things. And maybe he said it…” Page 871 Siyar, Imam Dhahabi.

It’s well known some salafis are known to go beyond their limits, everything they see they take literally, and affirm literally. I’ve posted on the topic of Istiqrar before, now they, some of them, have started defending Julus and have started attributing them to the noble Salaf as their tafsir for Istiwa’. It’s enough of a refutation that the Muhaqiq Hanabilah didn’t hold this position nor did the earlier commentators on the verse of istiwa’ state Julus being one of them, especially someone the likes of Imam Tabari. The narration that they use is mentioned in Kitab as-Sunnah or Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyya as Imam Dhahabi refers to it, since the first chapter in Kitab as-Sunnah deals with Jahimites. The same book has the narration of the mouth as stated above(1). Imam Dhahabi refers to Kitab as-Sunnah as Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyya, and his opinion of the work is clear from his above statement(2). The isnad of the work (Kitab as-Sunnah) has at least one or two individuals whom we have no information about. This would makes sense, especially due to some of the reports mentioned in the work, which the likes of Imam Ahmed or his son would never say, as the first quote of Imam Dhahabi testifies to(1).

Regarding the narration that salafis have started to propagate regarding Istiwa’ as Julus, the narration is mentioned in Kitab as-Sunnah, in al-Uluw of Imam Dhahabi, Siyar (not exactly) and one of Abu Hatim’s work (don’t know which one). Any reliance on Kitab as-Sunnah should be deemed unreliable, not only due to the isnad of the work, but because of the rarity of the narration. The narration that they quote is “When Allah ta’ala sits on a kursi…” Through this narration, they have said istiwa means Julus. We say, is Istiwa on Kursi or ‘Arsh? As they are two different. And if you say this, then that means you believe in Istiwa on ‘Arsh and Julus on Kursi, something that any clear minded individual would deny. As a result they say, some scholars such as Imam Hasan al-Basri say ‘Arsh and the Kursi are same, we say we have clear cut narration by Sufyan and Waki’ (the so called narrators of the julus narration) that explicitly states they are two different things, and the narration is mentioned in Ibn Kathir’s tafsir, and it is, “Waki’ narrated in his tafsir, Sufyan narrated to us on the authority of ‘Ammar Ad-Dhahabi, on the authority of Muslim al-Bittin, on the authority of Sa’id bin Jubayr on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, he said, “the Kursi is the place of the two feet, and the ‘Arsh no one can assess it’s value”.

It’s also interesting that Imam Dhahabi didn’t mention Julus in the narration he narrated in Siyar, but it’s mentioned in al-Uluw. Imam Dhahabi disavowwed that work, as Shaykh Haddad mentions. I don’t know how Shaykh Albani could authenticate this narration, except only if it’s mentioned in Abu Hatim’s work, but I couldn’t find which work of his mentions it. Regarding the narration itself, there are many problems with the matan and Isnad as Imam Ibn Kathir mentions. As a sidepoint, Ibn Kathir doesn’t even mention the first part of the narration but is replaced by another wording thus deeming it to have issues in the matn. And whoever wants to read up on that can read the tafsir on Ayatul Kursi. Even Qahtani in his tahqiq of Kitab as-Sunnah says the narration is weak, Suffice it to say that Julus can’t be a tafsir for Istiwa’ as our salafi brethen would like us to believe otherwise the creed would be the following: Istiwa on ‘Arsh and Julus on Kursi.

Statements of Hanabilah negating Julus (from Nihayatul Mubtadi’in li Ibn Hamdan page 35):
1 – Ibn ‘Aqil said, “(He’s) upon the ‘Arsh, not like sitting (Jalis) on a chair nor riding on an animal”
2 – Qadi said, “He’s not sitting (Qu’ud) nor touching”.
3 – Abu Ahmed Rizqullah bin ‘AbdilWahhab at-Tamimi Shaykh bin said, “nor do we say He’s with His essance sitting on the Throne, or standing, or lying, or sleeing, or touching…”

Conclusion: The narration of Julus can’t be relied upon, since it’s not authentic and can’t be the tafsir for istiwa as some salafis are obsessed with by their defense.

Ibn Kathir’s discussion on the narration:

Shaykh Haddad’s discussion on al-Uluw:

Salafis affirming Istiwa’ is Julus not on Arsh but on Kursi – “Juloos is an interpretation of Istiwaa that is found in the Salaf.” –

Qahtani’s tahqiq on Kitab as-Sunnah – It would’ve been better also for Qahtani to mention the many differences in the Matn and Sanad.

Shaykh Nuh on Kitab as-Sunnah –

Wa ‘alaykumus Salam

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